The Dog's Of War DogFight: A Prime Lennox Lewis Vs. Prime Mike Tyson
By Bollocks1984 vs. Champ4ever (April, 24, 2005)
Forum Members from the DogPound know it's a "Dog Eat Dog" world out there. Each week from the DogPound Boxing Forums, we pit one Dog against another for the ultimate in DogFighting. This week from the Dog's Of War Files we pit Bollocks1984 vs. Champ4ever. Their spelling and comments remain in tact.
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The Topic they will DogFight over: A Prime Lennox Lewis Vs. Prime Mike Tyson.
The Ref in Charge of the Action is: Boss Dog.
Boss Dog: Post stating the side you will debate.
BOLLOCKS1984: I know someone will bite on this one, so i'll take prime Lewis.
Champ4ever: ok here we go bollocks I'll debate with you on this one that a prime Tyson would beat a prime Lewis.
The problem for you is that im unbiased and am a fan of both lennox and tyson and you will lose this debate.
BOLLOCKS1984: Do you want to go first, or shall I?
Champ4ever: You can, come on bring it.
BOLLOCKS1984: No, you can go first. See, the tactical warfare has already begun, and I have the upper hand. I know now that you're a defensive fighter. Not very Tyson like is it? Chop chop, I haven't got all day. .
Champ4ever: ok i'll go first.
Tyson in his prime was a great offensive fighter that not only threw one punch but threw multiple combination's and it didn't matter if he missed one punch because you knew he would land a punch with one of his combination's, and i dont know how lennox would handle getting punched with such hard feroucious punches, considering he has been knocked out twice with single shot's.
another good thing with tyson in his prime is that he was a 12 round fighter at a high pace and i think that eventually tyson would catch lennox in those 12 rounds because tyson could land bombs even in the later part of the fight.
now lennox has a good jab and that would cause trouble for tyson, but what happens when lennox starts mising his jabs and missing punches because of tyson bobbing and weaving all the time, lennox would panick because he's always been cautious of a puncher and then he starts to make mistakes and he would get caught.
now i watched the tyson -lewis fight and what surprised me in the first round is that tyson wobbled lewis back with a JAB and that's all i had to see to know that tyson would of beaten lewis because tyson was so washed up for that fight, but he still landed a jab that connected and hurt lennox, now imagine a combination that would land because eventually lennox would get caught with such a fast fighter like tyson.
now you most probabley thinking all im saying is that lennox getting caught, but that's because everytime lennox get's caught he wobbles or worse get's knocked out.
BOLLOCKS1984: Tyson in his prime was indeed a great offensive fighter, but he was also fighting guy's who were nowhere near the level of Lewis. Most of prime Tyson's opponants were beaten before the first bell had even rung. They were scared out of their wits. Lewis would have been a totally different proposition for Tyson. Tyson would be up against a fighter who would not have been scared of him, and who had the arsenal to cause him all sorts of problems he would not have encountered before.
Lewis would also not have allowed Tyson to tee of him him, and unload combinations. He would have have used his size to tie Tyson up on the inside, and frustrate him. Lewis was a master at doing this, and the only times he's ever got caught were in fights he took lightly, and didin't train properly. Then when Tyson was on the outside, Lewis jabs would be in Tyson's face all night long. And with the straight/overhand/uppercut rights following through, it wouldn't be long before Tyson would become reluctant to dive in.
As I said before though, the level of Tyson's opponants were nowhere near LL's quality. Fighters like Bonecrusher Smith, Tillis, Green and Tucker (who all went the distance with Tyson), all aloud Tyson to unload shots on them. There is no way Lewis would allow this to happen. Lewis was not just a big man, he was a SMART big man. He also doesn't get enough credit for how crafty he was. He's was brilliant at avoiding big punches, and getting out of tight spots, by using his size and strength. Tyson would be alot more tired in a long fight with Lewis than he was against the fighters just mentioned. They were all in survival mode once Tyson enforced his will on them.
LL's jab wouldn't be missing though, not once he was warmed up at least. Tyson would almsot certainly come out with an early burst, but LL would just tie him up, and wear him out with his size and strength. After a couple of rounds of doing this, with Tyson frustrated at his lack of success, Lewis would be landing a decent percentage of his jabs all night. And Tyson would not like it one bit. LL's jab was sickening, and Tyson would be feeling the brunt of it.
You watched a different fight to me then. I never saw Lewis wobbled at all, not even in the first (Tyson's best round). Tyson landed a couple of shots, but nothing spectacular. Also landing one jab in any fight is not enough to show that a fighter could have beaten someone else if they were younger.
Your opinion is not right at all. LL has been given massive stick by fans about his chin, because of the way he's been knocked out. But he didn't see either punch that he got knocked out with, and it's the ones you don't see that are the worst. Also the Rahman punch was a huge right hand that would of taken out most fighters. It landed right on the button, because LL was messing around, and hadn't trained properly.
On top of all that, LL has proved his chin in other fights, it's just that people like to forget about those, and concentrate on his ko losses. Look at the punches Vitali landed on him. No one with a weak chin would be taking those shots. And take a look at the fights with Mercer and Briggs where he also took some decent shots.
In conclusion, I feel LL's skill, smarts and size would just be to much for the Tyson. Mike didn't have the mental fortitude to overcome such a tough obstacle as Lewis. Even Tyson fans by the bundle have alway's said that had Tyson not been so mentally weak, he would have been so much better. What they don't seem to realise is mental strength is a talent in itself, just like power, speed, strength etc. If a fighter doesn't have mental strength, well then that's just the way it is. A Pernell Whitaker fan could say that if he had the power of Julian Jackson, he would be unbeatable. But they don't, because that's just stupid logic.
Lewis would have had the jab in Tyson's face all night long, and that together with his devastating right hand would just have been to much for Iron Mike. Lewis would enforce his will on Tyson just like every fighter who's beaten him has. And just like in everyone of his losses, Tyson would lose heart and crumble.
Champ4ever: Now Lennox had a very good jab and i admit that, but the matter of fact is tyson has proved he could take lennox best shot's for eight whole rounds and even lennox lewis couldn't belive it and that's by a complete washed up mike tyson, now can lennox lewis do the same, i dont think so and that's where the big difference comes because both of these fighters would land big shot's and tyson punches would do more damage because lennox's chin is not as good.
that's the whole debate really it's just a matter of opinion and in my opinion i dont belive lennox could take tyson's best shot's and still be standing, but i know tyson can take lennox best shot's and still be there looking for more.
now you talk about tyson's opponent's, but tyson fought the best of his era and became champion in just over a year in turning pro, while lennox lewis was fighting tyson past opponent's 3/4 years while turning pro, so who fought the best opposition earley in there career?, it would defiantly have to be tyson considering he was undisputed champion in just two years turning pro.
Champ4ever (out of turn, repsonds again): You have just finished this debate with that quote because you have just said what some boxing experts think, because when you have a 5"11 man against a 6"5 giant who bob's and weaves all the time you dont see most of those punches coming because he's to far down, so lennox lewis would have less chance seeing tyson punches than rahman or mccall because of his style and height.
BOLLOCKS1984: Oi, you can't post two replies in a row. You have to wait until i've replied to the first one.
Tyson did take LL's punches for 8 rounds, but he was finished earlier than that. Manny Steward was telling LL from about the 5th that Tyson was done. LL could have taken him out much earlier, but he just stuck to his boxing. And who say's LL would need the knockout? LL was a much better boxer than Tyson, and a points win would be more than good enough.
Yes, but imo, Lewis wouldn't be taking Tyson's best shots, he'd be avoiding them. There might be a couple of scary moments for Lewis, but he would find a way to get through them.
Tyson wouldn't be taking LL's best shots for long either. LL's right hand was every bit as hard as Tyson's best shots. That was a monster punch. A few of them landing on Tyson's chin, and he'd know about it.
I don't see how this is relevant. Were not debating who had the better competition early in their careers. The point I was making, is none of the guy's Tyson fought in his prime were as good as Lewis. The things Tyson was doing to those guy's he would not be able to do with Lewis.
Champ4ever: yes tyson was finished before the eighth round and that's what worry's me even more about lennox lewis because if he messed around like that without finishing a prime tyson then he would most likely get caught. lennox lewis was technically a better boxer than mike tyson, but then he had the frame and the height to use his boxing skills to an advantage, but this fight would defiantley not last 12 rounds because you can guarantee one of them would get knocked out because they both have very powerfull punches, but like i said the chin department will play to tyson hands and his style will help him get on the inside which many fighters find it hard to do against lennox lewis.
lennox would be taking tyson best shot's one way or another, i mean there both such good boxers that they will find a way to land good punches, and tyson has already proved he can take lennox's best shot's for eight whole rounds and tyson took it, so i dont know what you mean about tyson not taking lennox's best shots for long because tyson has already proved he can.
BOLLOCKS1984: LL wasn't messing around, exactly the opposite in fact. He stuck to boxing, in order not to get caught with a desperate punch from Tyson. LL's concentration was at it's mx throughout the fight.
Yes, Lewis was a technically a better boxer, and that along with his mental fortitude is why he'd beat Tyson. I don't agree though that the fight wouldn't go 12 rounds. Boxing is a strange game, and sometimes when your expecting knockout's, they don't come. In fact the most likely outcome I see in this fight, is an LL decision win.
I simply don't agree that Tyson would be landing his best shots. LL was just simply to good when in was on his game. Tyson might land a couple of half decent shots, but nothing flush.
And as for Tyson taking LL's best punches. There's a difference between taking them, and taking them while being competitive at the same time. Tyson was a punch bag in that fight, and LL could of had him out of there much earlier than he did. He just chose not to.
That way I see the fight going is like this. Tyson would burst out of the blocks like he has alway's done. However, Lewis would be ready and prepared. As soon as Tyson tried to move inside, Leiws would tie him up, and push his weight onto Tyson. Lewis might also fire out a few big right hands to get Tyson's respect early. But at the same time being very aware of the danger. This would be the case for the first two or three rounds, until Tyson's initial aggression had died down, and Lewis had turned the match into his type of fight. Once this had happened, Lewis would start ot get into his rhythm. You'd start seeing Lewis sticking the jab in Tyson's face, with Tyson on the outside. Tyson would be reduced to diving in with left hooks, which Lewis would be more than able to deal with, either moving out of the way, or blocking and clinching. You'd soon start to see Tyson getting frustrated by this type of fight, and that would be the beginning of the end for him. Tyson has never once come back to win a fight in which his heart was taken away. He has never had the mental strength to overcome adversity, and turn around a fight which wasn't going his way.
By about round 7, or 8, Lewis would clearly be in charge, with Tyson almost resigned to defeat. Every round would be a mirror image of the last, with Lewis dictating the fight on the outside with his jab and right hands. The fight might last until the final bell, or Lewis might have knocked Tyson out late ala Holyfield. However, that wouldn't be important. The only importan thing is Lewis would be the one with his arm raised in the end.
In fact, Lewis v Tyson wouldn't be to dissimilar to Tyson v Holyfield, only Lewis wouldn't be in range to get hit as much with his extra size.
Lewis is smarter, he's bigger, and most importantly, he's alway's been mentally tougher than Tyson. He's simply the better fighter.
This will be my last post unless Champ4ever comes back with someone I have talked about yet. Otherwise we will both be going over the same points again and again. So once Champ replies, we can get this thing judged.
Champ4ever: this will be my last post aswell and it has been a good debate, but of course i think the fight will be different and i will post why.
Tyson also had a good jab and would triple those jabs and the good thing about tyson is he would'nt throw one sort of jab or one sort of punch he had numbers which his trainers and him used and this showed how scientic of a boxer tyson was because tyson understood boxing and was trained by the great cus at such a young age, and it showed. he once did an interview which he said something like this " if a fighter throws a combination 2,4,5 i would throw a 5,4,2," now this is just brilliant because it just shows that he wasn't just a slugger he was also a thinker and as a thinker he was scientifically a good boxer, but of course people forget that about mike tyson because he was in the paper for the wrong reason's, his peak was short or because people just remember him as a knockout artist so they forget all the skills he needed to have to beat such tall, big, skillfull boxers.
here we go, so you have lennox lewis who is a great boxer, who's big with an awesome jab, but then you have his opponent mike tyson who bob's and weaves out of jabs and prefers fighting bigger guys so he could get the right leverage with his combinations. number two, you have lennox lewis who is such a destructive puncher and to be honest with you i think his power is very underated, but then you have mike tyson who has the chin to take lennox's best punches and has proved that he can take lennox's best punches till late into the fight, and of course that was a washed up mike tyson, so a peak tyson wouldn't get caught by so many punches. the problem is lennox lewis has proved twice that his chin has let him down when he was knocked out by one punches while winning both fights something tyson has never done and of course tyson would be the hardest puncher lennox would of faced, same that i believe that lennox would of been one of the hardest punchers that tyson would of faced, but as i have stated in my post all the advantages all go to tyson because of his ability to take such punches and his style, oh and he was menatlly weak at this stage in his prime when he was fighting the likes of berbick and had a great corner in rooney and had actual people who cared for him, tyson was unbeatable at that time. also i dont belive lennox's jab would be that effective as you dont have time to throw the jab when your having someone who's always bobbing and weaving out of punches and is so offensive minded like mike tyson rushing in, and it has been proved that once lennox jab has not been effective in a fight that he's actually boxed pretty poor or had a tough night that certain night and exactly the same would happen against mike tyson because every advantage lennox's has it just seems tyson has a style to take that advantage away, it just seems like lennox is made for a peak tyson.
Boss Dog: This was a good debate with both sides making some good points.
Champ4ever concentrated on Tysons ability to out punch Lewis with fast and hard combinations whilst Bollocks1984 refuted this claim and relied on Lewis's ability to out think and out box Tyson.
I think Bollocks1984 takes the win here as he refuted all of champ4evers points and came back with some excellent ones of his own.
Decision: Bollocks1984 wins!
Good debate guys thanks for taking part and goodluck with future debates.
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