The Dog's Of War: Hagler vs Hopkins: Who'd Win?
By Coyote Duran vs. NotoriousL (May 1st, 2005)  
Photo © Coyote Duran
Forum Members from the DogPound know it's a "Dog Eat Dog" world out there. Each week from the DogPound Boxing Forums, we pit one Dog against another for the ultimate in DogFighting. This week from the Dog's Of War Files we pit Coyote Duran vs. NotoriousL. Their spelling and comments remain in tact.

The Topic they will DogFight over: Hagler vs Hopkins: Who'd Win?
The Ref in Charge of the Action is: Boss Dog.

Boss Dog: Post stating the side you will debate.

Coyote Duran: As much of a Bernard Hopkins fan that I am, I will elect to debate why Marvin Hagler would beat Bernard Hopkins.

No one's challenging me? OK. I'll get started on my arguments anyway. I'll be back with my first round later.

Boss Dog: Sorry Coyote but you need an opponent before the debate can begin.

NotoriousL: I'll take Hopkins, let's rumble.

Coyote Duran: If we're looking at the later years Marvin Hagler, obviously the "Destruct and Destroy" champion, then we're looking at a guy who's depending in greater upper body strength and his heavier handed approach in dealing with Hopkins. Hagler could box well, but further on in his career, we saw a man who made pretty much a virtual career trade-off with Bernard Hopkins who was more heavy-handed in his earlier days. Hagler was a natural southpaw but switched with ease unlike most southpaws that Bernard Hopkins has tangled with in the past. Possessed with a rock hard head, as we saw vs. Thomas Hearns, "Marvelous Marvin" would shake off Hopkins' lunging straight right hands from a distance and short uppercuts and hooks while being cuffed on the inside. Hopkins benefits from an intimidating presence and most of his opponents really have no idea how to approach him so they elect to travel in circles and throwing a punch once in a while with Hopkins dictating the pace.

Hagler doesn't subscribe to intimidation. He believed in war. When action gets close again and Hopkins cuffs with the hand further away from the referee's line of sight and hooks on the inside, Hagler will throw back on the inside, shot for shot and with a decidedly harder punch, Hagler could very well break out of the phone booth, and use his reach to wing right hand bombs at a Hopkins who switches to a dancing defensive mode for the entirety of the bout from then on.

With Hopkins in flight (for lack of a better term. Hopkins doesn't move away for fear but for stratagem's sake.) mode, Hagler would become more persuant, looking to cage in the elusive Hopkins and target his head with his natural left crosses.

One of Hopkins' best tactics is the unseen foul. With that weapon negated and his "punch here, punch there" strategy withering away, Hopkins might finally cater to Hagler and fight Hagler's fight out of desperation. In the end, a unanimous decision will be Hagler's because Marvin will find Bernard as difficult to knockout as Roberto Duran was. That's why Hagler will make Hopkins play Hagler's game.

NotoriousL: Now I want to make this perfectly clear.
The Bernard Hopkins that we see today, would not have beaten the Marvin Hagler that we all know of.

When I'm looking at this, I'm talking of the Bernard Hopkins that dismantled Tito Trinidad. That Bernard Hopkins was one of the best middleweights in the history of the game.

Marvelous Marvin Hagler and Bernard Hopkins are very much alike, they're hard men.. inside and outside of the squared circle. They both brought a very intimidating presence into the ring, and they both could fight to back up that presence.

But there is one major difference in styles that differentiates them... versatility.

Marvelous Marvin Hagler was a great fighter, but a fighter that relied on 3 things, conditioning, will, and physical strength. It was his goal to press a fight for 15 full rounds until whoever it was that was in front of him was gone. He carried this throughout his career, and he was absolutely brillaint in his work.

However, what would he do when a guy refused to stand with him, a guy that knows how to win, and that wouldn't buy into Hagler's game? Well, we all saw what he'd do, he'd keep trying. Hagler's fight with Sugar Ray Leonard set the blueprint and is the fight that I believe accurately depicts how Bernard Hopkins would have "Executed" Hagler, except in far more emphatic fashion then the much smaller Ray Leonard.

Hopkins is also, like Hagler, a HUGE middleweight. Physically powerful, and bruising. In a matchup of pure strength, this one is about as even as it gets. Many may think Hagler was stronger, but in terms of size and boxing functional strength, he was NOT.

The Hopkins at the time of the Trinidad fight would NOT have thrown a shot here and there, jumping in and out with a shot and looking to grab. He was a guy who put together punches, and found beautiful angles to land crushing shots. (His power was much more devestating a few years back, it has deteriorated with age, even Hopkins himself has admitted this) Lets not disregard the fact that Hopkins, just as Hagler was, has ALWAYS been in absolutely flawless condition.
Being as strong as Hopkins is, he would not have catered to Haglers style. He would have stuck him with a jab from the get go, letting Hagler start to bring the fight to him, and dissecting him with his overrall BETTER SKILLS and well roundedness.

Hagler was tremendous, but Hopkins just has more to work with. Hagler would be chasing Hopkins all night, but unlike the Hopkins we saw vs Eastman (a Hopkins that I like to refer to as slowing down, losing punching power, and the overall tenacity), the prime Bernard Hopkins was an absolutely murderous fighter. He would have shucked in and out (Hopkins is such a quicker fighter then the somewhat methodical Hagler) landing many series of devestating shots and leaving when any resistance was offered up from Hagler.

Certainly Hopkins would take a few shots in the bout, but with Hopkins's jaw of CAST IRON, there is absolutely no way that Hagler would have gotten to him enough to force a stoppage or even to significantly hurt Hopkins in my opinion. He would have chased him hard, he would have pressed the issue, but once Hopkins started Banging him and getting inside and mauling him, not giving Hagler any room, tapping him on the thighs, tangling him up, freeing up an arm and ripping a few uppercuts and short hooks (Hopkins is a perfectionist at this craft), he would gain control of Hagler.

Hopkins was too fast, equally strong, and had MANY MANY more options then Hagler. When Option 1 would fail for Hagler, he would have nothing else to resort to, of course The Marvelous one would try in vein, but it would be futile. Even when he beat Hearns, he had one option, go through all that punishment and do what he does best. Strength, will, and conditioning. Hopkins would NEVER get into that kind of fight with Hagler, and the result would be a hard fought Hopkins decision, potentially even stopping him late. Sugar Ray Leonard pulled it off, and he was nowhere near as strong as Hopkins, Hopkins is catlike quick, and there's no doubt in my mind he could pull off the same gimmick to perfection, except better. Just like he pulled off the gameplan set forth by Oscar De La Hoya on Felix Trinidad better.

Coyote Duran: I agree with your assessment on when the Hopkins flip occurred, Notorious. Bernard Hopkins definitely went to a "safety first" modus operandi after he beat Tito Trinidad so to absolutely be fair, I definitely accept the Trinidad-beating Hopkins as the participant in this affair.

Now, to analogize with the Hopkins-Trinidad connection (or as close as I can) if I may, I'd like to present John Mugabi's challenge to Marvin Hagler as a proportional example. Trinidad moved up from welterweight to junior middleweight and stuck around awhile and gained, I believe, the WBA and IBF belts but didn't hang aroung long before testing the middleweight waters. Mugabi wasn't a welterweight, but moved back and forth from 154 to 160, yet made his successes at 154, ultimately. When Mugabi faced Hopkins, he was 25-0 with 25 KOs. Fearsome at the very least and many pegged him to defeat the champion. The strongest, physical, hardest hitting guy to come down the pike, and Hagler KOs him. The loss shook Mugabi to where he lost his next fight to Duane Thomas and affected him deeply, very likely to the end of Mugabi's career in '99. I can't imagine Hopkins hitting Hagler harder than Mugabi had. And he did catch Hagler with some big shots.

Now weight and power are all really I have to compare "The Beast" to Tito but it's a comparison that minorly applies. So to compare the skills of Bernard Hopkins to John Mugabi would be very dodgy. Hopkins, a crafty cobra, would have to bring out the Tito-era Hopkins, face forward, constant punching Hopkins to the table. I absolutely cannot disagree with you regarding Hopkins' punch output then. He was a different animal altogether. A chameleon, if you ask me since he can change it up so easily.

Which brings me to Hagler-Leonard. IMO, Hagler, dropped the ball against Leonard. He could've pushed the advantage from the beginning but didn't and that ultimately costed him. Leonard is a different breed of cat and won this fight in the style that Oscar De La Hoya wins many of his, by flurrying in the last minute and stealing rounds, cleverly, I might add, taking advantage of the slight lead Hagler had given him. Hagler wouldn't have made this mistake with Hopkins because I'm sure that the Petronelli brothers would've studied enough "pre-Tito" tape on Hopkins to know how to deal with him. You think Hopkins would make Hagler come to him and fight his fight when I think that Hagler would make Hopkins fight his fight. That actually gives me a chuckle and not in a bad, disrespectful way, Notorious, but in a "That's how perfect these two fighting each other would be" kind of way. But that's where Hagler would differ from those who would fall into "The Executioner's" trap. Like I said before, Hagler would pursue Hopkins and alter his own strategy to bring more than the fight to Bernard Hopkins. He would bring Plan B, Plan C and Plan D out of Hopkins. That's why Hagler wouldn't KO Hopkins. Hopkins is too crafty. But his craftiness and penchant for calculation would eat up too much of his own time while Hagler would spend his own time scoring with hard shots, some bouncing off Hopkins' gloves, some not.

NotoriousL: I respect your opinion in regards to Hagler's chin, and he DID take several hard shots from Mugabi... I'll post it sometime if you want to download it.

Sure it's a stretch to say that perhaps Hopkins could stop him late, and I'm certainly not saying that would happen. What I am saying is that this is boxing, and if Hopkins makes Hagler walk into enough CLEAN hard shots, then anybody, including the Marvelous one could go to sleep!

I also find this argument a little silly (but interesting and absolutely no offense to the Coyote man) because this argument all lies in whether you believe Marvin Hagler could make Hopkins fight his fight.

IF he could make Hopkins fight his fight, then we're looking at a fight that Hagler wins with just sheer determination, using his smarts, and making Hopkins uncomfortable. I just can't see it happening. I think through anything that Hagler brings to the table, Hopkins sticks to his guns. He's smart enough to know what needs to be done to win the fight, and he knows to stick to the plan through ANY ROUGH spots that may occur.

Look how squared up Hagler's style was, he was always setting to let his punches go, and Hopkins is the kind of guy that can punch and move, stop and fire hard and quick combinations and get out, or tie up. He's just too smooth!

Hopkins has that uncanny ability to fight anyway he wants to fight. He can be smooth and fluid, lightning fast like Ray Leonard; he can stalk and pound, abuse the man and beat them up like a pure brawler. There is NO one set way that Bernard Hopkins can beat you! I think this would be a hard fought bout any way you look at it!

Now Hagler had a tremendous heart and will, and like in the Mugabi fight, and the Hearns fight; even if he was taking a lot of punishment, if he was landing and getting his share of damage in, he STILL always believed he would be the man on top. What happens when he can't get his licks in??????

All in all, I think Hopkins would frustrate Hagler, make him angry, and use every bit of cunningness and craft to just outslick the squared up Hagler over the long stretch.

Coyote Duran: QUOTE
I respect your opinion in regards to Hagler's chin, and he DID take several hard shots from Mugabi... I'll post it sometime if you want to download it.

I'll take you up on that!! Woo-hoo!

QUOTE
Sure it's a stretch to say that perhaps Hopkins could stop him late, and I'm certainly not saying that would happen. What I am saying is that this is boxing, and if Hopkins makes Hagler walk into enough CLEAN hard shots, then anybody, including the Marvelous one could go to sleep!

I think Hops would have to belt Hagler pretty hard to get him close to a stoppage, to be honest. If we're still talking about the "pre-Tito" Executioner, we are indeed looking at a guy who's more fearless in the trenches. But this is also the same Hopkins that failed to KO Keith Holmes in the second most important challenge (not necessarily toughness-wise but history-wise) to undisputed glory and couldn't put away Syd Vanderpool within the distance. Sure, Hopkins possessed only the IBF strap at the time, he defeated Vanderpool but he risked not being the household name against another virtual unknown in Holmes who got decisioned by Hassine Cherifi, of all people.
Sure Holmes TKO'ed him in the rematch but the damage was done.

QUOTE
I also find this argument a little silly (but interesting and absolutely no offense to the Coyote man) because this argument all lies in whether you believe Marvin Hagler could make Hopkins fight his fight.

No offense taken. It's a tough debate to suss when both parties are that great.

QUOTE
Look how squared up Hagler's style was, he was always setting to let his punches go, and Hopkins is the kind of guy that can punch and move, stop and fire hard and quick combinations and get out, or tie up. He's just too smooth!

True enough, my good man. True enough. But even Hopkins has been caught. It doesn't happen often and when it does, it's even more rare that the shot is debilitating enough to shake him. Antwun Echols caught him with some heat and good. Hopkins is very fluid but on the occasion that Hagler catches Hops with that one hard shot, it could very well make the few shots Echols caught Hopkins with look more like Chris Byrd threw 'em. All the fluidity and variation of style in the world can't save you when that one dizzying shot (i.e. Thomas Hearns) catches him. It might take more, but sometimes all it takes is one.

NotoriousL: QUOTE
I think Hops would have to belt Hagler pretty hard to get him close to a stoppage, to be honest. If we're still talking about the "pre-Tito" Executioner, we are indeed looking at a guy who's more fearless in the trenches. But this is also the same Hopkins that failed to KO Keith Holmes in the second most important challenge (not necessarily toughness-wise but history-wise) to undisputed glory and couldn't put away Syd Vanderpool within the distance. Sure, Hopkins possessed only the IBF strap at the time, he defeated Vanderpool but he risked not being the household name against another virtual unknown in Holmes who got decisioned by Hassine Cherifi, of all people.
Sure Holmes TKO'ed him in the rematch but the damage was done.

Of course Hopkins would have to belt him pretty hard, but sometimes it's not about the power a shot lands with, it's the accuracy and the timing. When you have them tiny gloves on, and you sneak a shot and it lands just right, the fight can end in a heartbeat!

I definitely give merit to your argument that Hopkins couldn't KO Holmes and Vanderpool, but lets remember, STYLES MAKE FIGHTS! The reason Hopkins couldn't stop them guys but thrashed Tito Trinidad is because TRINIDAD came to fight! The other guys came in there and understood that this was a no win situation for them and were not willing to take the risks necessary to win a fight. That's why I love a guy like Felix Trinidad, he was losing that fight, and he was taking severe punishment, but he never stopped doing the things necessary for him to potentially win that fight. It didn't happen that way, but he gave it that effort.
Hagler is a guy that is going to do the things he has to do to win the fight, even if that means putting himself at risk to be knocked out. That's why I say it's a possibility that if Hagler walks in shoulders squared looking to do his work, and walks into enough hard stuff, he could potentially get himself stopped in the late rounds! I wouldn't put my money on it, but certainly a man can only take so much abuse before the flesh gives. My actual PREDICTION should this fight have been able to occur would lie more within Hopkins being able to execute his gameplan from start to finish through the rough moments to pull out the decision.

QUOTE
No offense taken. It's a tough debate to suss when both parties are that great.



QUOTE
True enough, my good man. True enough. But even Hopkins has been caught. It doesn't happen often and when it does, it's even more rare that the shot is debilitating enough to shake him. Antwun Echols caught him with some heat and good. Hopkins is very fluid but on the occasion that Hagler catches Hops with that one hard shot, it could very well make the few shots Echols caught Hopkins with look more like Chris Byrd threw 'em. All the fluidity and variation of style in the world can't save you when that one dizzying shot (i.e. Thomas Hearns) catches him. It might take more, but sometimes all it takes is one.

Definitely! Hence the great debate, hence my argument that this is a fight Hopkins could potentially win by stoppage!

Antwan Echols is a murderous puncher my friend, Hopkins just has one of the finest beards this sport has seen in some time. The same could be said for the Marvelous one. I think Echols is such a hard puncher in fact (especially at middleweight) that I don't believe Hagler could have hit Hopkins any harder then Echols did in those two fights! I believe Hagler could lay MORE hands on Hopkins, and THAT would be the greater danger in a fight with the Marvelous one as opposed to the Echols fights. Echols was outclassed. Hagler would not fall into the same traps, so it's definitely a more dangerous fights, but in terms of one and done, Echols bangs with the best of them my friend!

It's a great argument, and this would have been a hell of a fight.

Coyote Duran: QUOTE
Of course Hopkins would have to belt him pretty hard, but sometimes it's not about the power a shot lands with, it's the accuracy and the timing. When you have them tiny gloves on, and you sneak a shot and it lands just right, the fight can end in a heartbeat!

This is the part where I really suck ass. Being a fighter yourself, you actually know this stuff from experience!

QUOTE
Hagler is a guy that is going to do the things he has to do to win the fight, even if that means putting himself at risk to be knocked out. That's why I say it's a possibility that if Hagler walks in shoulders squared looking to do his work, and walks into enough hard stuff, he could potentially get himself stopped in the late rounds!

The more I think about it, the less I think Hagler steeling himself with shoulders squared might benefit him when facing Hopkins and I might be less inclined to think Hagler would do well by chasing down Hopkins. Check it out: When Hagler was more agressive with thinking machines like Leonard and Duran, he couldn't stop 'em. He might have frustrated himself in pursuing them. Sure, Thomas Hearns wound up not fitting that type and Hagler could go after him but Hearns' only real saving grace was his hard punch (It definitely wasn't his chin.
). Hopkins is that combination of sharp, accurate punches and I've always considered him a living computer, so if Hagler does square up his shoulders and walks in, but not too hastily, he could benefit from Hopkins lunging in in that Hopkins-style to meet one of "Marvelous"'s best weapons: A hot right hook.

All Hagler has to do is keep himself looking squared up and easy. If he can convince Hopkins to make the attack, Bernard might just fall victim much like John Mugabi, Wilford Sypion or Mustafa Hamsho.

QUOTE
Definitely! Hence the great debate, hence my argument that this is a fight Hopkins could potentially win by stoppage!

I apologize, dude. I wasn't terribly clear when I mentioned the big shot and Hearns in the same sentence ("All the fluidity and variation of style in the world can't save you when that one dizzying shot (i.e. Thomas Hearns) catches him.") I meant the shot that Hagler caught Hearns with.

QUOTE
I believe Hagler could lay MORE hands on Hopkins, and THAT would be the greater danger in a fight with the Marvelous one as opposed to the Echols fights. Echols was outclassed. Hagler would not fall into the same traps.

This somewhat contradicts your earlier statement on Hagler perhaps "walking into the hard stuff" and putting himself in danger of possibly being stopped. But the above statement is very much right on the money. Hagler wouldn't fall into the same trap Echols did, but that's only if he doesn't become too aggressive.


NotoriousL: QUOTE
This is the part where I really suck ass. Being a fighter yourself, you actually know this stuff from experience!

Is that a 10-9 round for Notorious????

QUOTE
The more I think about it, the less I think Hagler steeling himself with shoulders squared might benefit him when facing Hopkins and I might be less inclined to think Hagler would do well by chasing down Hopkins. Check it out: When Hagler was more agressive with thinking machines like Leonard and Duran, he couldn't stop 'em. He might have frustrated himself in pursuing them. Sure, Thomas Hearns wound up not fitting that type and Hagler could go after him but Hearns' only real saving grace was his hard punch (It definitely wasn't his chin. ). Hopkins is that combination of sharp, accurate punches and I've always considered him a living computer, so if Hagler does square up his shoulders and walks in, but not too hastily, he could benefit from Hopkins lunging in in that Hopkins-style to meet one of "Marvelous"'s best weapons: A hot right hook.

All Hagler has to do is keep himself looking squared up and easy. If he can convince Hopkins to make the attack, Bernard might just fall victim much like John Mugabi, Wilford Sypion or Mustafa Hamsho.

True, but this is another trap that Bernard Hopkins is too smart to fall for more than once or twice in a fight. If Hagler doesn't tag him and knock him out right away, then Hopkins sees what Hagler's trying to do and stays away from lunging in too hastily.
As a SUPER experienced fighter, Bernard Hopkins is NEVER going to be foolish enough to get hit with a good crisp shot coming in too hastily without saying to himself "This guy is trying to bait me."
This is where I once again say that the VERSITILITY of Bernard Hopkins is what wins this fight.

QUOTE
This somewhat contradicts your earlier statement on Hagler perhaps "walking into the hard stuff" and putting himself in danger of possibly being stopped. But the above statement is very much right on the money. Hagler wouldn't fall into the same trap Echols did, but that's only if he doesn't become too aggressive.

Just because Hagler is not totally outclassed, (because let's face it he's a better fighter then Antwan Echols) doesn't mean he can change who he is. All that I mean by Hagler not being Antwan Echols is that Hagler is going to be more willing and ready to step in and try to find his spots. That DOES NOT mean that he won't be walking right into Bernard Hopkins's best ammunition on the way in. It's like you said yourself, When Hagler has a guy that can THINK (who is a smarter fighter than Bernard Hopkins in today's game), he finds himself getting frustrated and charging forward to little avail.
My point is that Hagler is not going to be quick to go away. He's going to take that fire, and try to come back, he's going to keep pursuing, even if it means getting knocked out. All you have to do is see Hagler-Hearns to know that.

However, JUST because Hagler is pursuing, doesn't mean he can force Hopkins into his kind of fight. Sugar Ray Leonard, my friend, Sugar Ray Leonard.

Mr. Duran, this is the versitility of Bernard "The Executioner" Hopkins. Put the ego down and do what is necessary to win the fight, at any costs, despite what anybody thinks, no matter HOW it looks. That is Bernard Hopkins, that is why he wins this fight.

Boss Dog: This thread will be locked in 6hrs time.

NotoriousL: In closing,

Mr. Duran, I've put out solid facts as to why Bernard Hopkins wins this fight. You've had a lot of "what if" scenarios, but none of them substantiate enough evidence to win this argument.

Hopkins is a consumate professional that is not going to be lured into a fight with Marvin Hagler (the basis of your argument), and history has shown that this is the Marvelous one's undoing.

I respect your opinion, you are a fine gentleman.


Thank you for a well thought out debate.

Coyote Duran: My one last shot, partner! If I may comment on this last thought and that is that history really has really shown that when Hagler's foes have been lured into his web to Hagler's fight, it's proven to be far more effective than if Hagler had to chase them. Also, Bernard Hopkins can't be intimidated but I truly believe that that's one of Hopkins' greatest weapons from the start. The key into any opponent's door.

As far as "What if" scenarios, all this is is one big "What if?" scenario. I think that's what drove me to make my little Hopkins-Hagler fight program in the first place!


But seriously, Frankie, you're a damn fine fight fan and win or lose (especially if I lose), I'll absolutely raise your hand as well. Thanks, dude.



Boss Dog: Again both debators did well here and countered each other effectively, Coyote impressed me throughout this debate but NotoriusL was always in it and clinched the draw.

Result: DRAW.

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